Have you heard of Moo Doe?

The so-called "traditional" martial art taught by Oom Yung Doe to raise money and recruit for their cult. 

Some things seem natural, like a glass of grapefruit juice would be a healthy choice for breakfast. But its important to check out the facts before you pick up a glass of pink yummy goodness. You could end up like this guy.

Information is a good thing.
Especially if you're interested in Oom Yung Doe.

Charles Won-suk Kim - the new John C. Kim?

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This entry was posted on 6/5/2007 6:26 PM and is filed under Fraud.

Oh, the joy of being a miraculous scam artist such as Grandmaster "Iron" Kim.  Unlike mere mortals who are limited in their capacity to do harm by criminal records that follow them around, John C. Kim has decided to change his reality by hiding behind yet another name.

Oom Yung Doe is touting a new version of "The Master Key of Wisdom" (http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail~bookid~43722.aspx ).  This is a book that has been talked about in Oom Yung Doe since the 90s, at least, as a work in progress by the grandmaster himself.  Presumably, this is the same book he was said to be working on in isolation, as the euphemistic line went, when students asked about Mr. Kim's whereabouts while he was in jail.  Although it is advertised by Oom Yung Doe as written by Grandmaster "Iron" Kim, the cover of the book states the author's name as one Charles Won-suk Kim.  In true moo doe fashion, there is the slight of hand introduced into something that would, otherwise, be a simple statement of authorship.  To anyone who doesn't research their OYD connections too closely, Grandmaster "Iron" Kim would appear to be Charles Won-suk Kim, thus leading students away from looking up information about the dubious legacy of John C. Kim.  Throughout the years that this book was being developed, including previous published versions (which were painstakenly collected back from each person who had a copy, when OYD cult management decided it "needed revision"), there was never any mention of a middleman author.  Is this yet another new alias for John "Chull" Kim, or a new person for him to hide behind?

(Edited 6/5/2007)

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    • 6/20/2007 7:12 AM Keith Lyons wrote:
      From 1974 thru 1977 I learned Chung Moo Kuan in Westmont Illinois. I was only 7 years old when I began. I'm sure it had to be one of the first schools in the Midwest - although I do recall Instructor Forest McGee(I'm sure he's Thomas's Father and the number 2 man to Head Master Kim) and Instructor Dave talking about the Minnesota School - If I ask my brother he could probably tell you which instructor was sent from Illinois to begin the Minnesota school. I believe the whole ideology (cult like methods) to the School of Chung Moo Quan was designed in part by Instructor Forest. If recall correctly, he and another top instructor met Kim in California where Kim picked them up hitchhiking and thus began 'Chung Moo Quan'. At the time Instructor Forests' wife was also a top Instructor.
      I saw Kim two or three times and he did fight against other instructors - of course being only 7,8 and 9 years old it was intense. I clearly remember him knocking Instructor Dave (who was much larger than any of the other instructors) to the floor with a slight of hand - rumor had it that Dave eventually had to leave the USA because he killed a man in a barroom fight. I also do recall some of the other students talking about how the Instructors would attack other Martial Arts Schools if they tried moving into the neighborhood - of course they claimed that our instructors gave them a thrashing and sent them running.
      I would guess that the man behind the empire is probably Forest Mcgee and I fail to see his name mentioned anywhere. I do recall Instructor Forest was pissed when I quit at age 9 - they had designs on me for marketing ploys. I was one section short of becoming a blackbelt. That was also a cool thing about Chung Moo Quan, they used to dye sections of your belt as you progressed.
      If you really want more info on the early years, contact me and I will ask my brother if he wants to comment - he's two years older than I am and he also trained there for two years. He probably remembers more.
      Reply to this
      1. 6/25/2007 1:24 AM Fred Burkle wrote:
        I don't think I've ever met anyone who offers a view of CMQ/CMD/OYD from a child's perspective, from that far back in the Moo's history!  Thanks for posting.  I think you are talking about Forrest Troutner, he was indeed the foundation for the earliest schools under John C. Kim and I hear that a lot of the militaristic ways of OYD came from him.  He was mentor to Tom Mcgee, but not related to him.  I don't know that Forrest had a wife who trained/taught in the system ... perhaps someone who was around in the 70s or early 80s could comment on that.  I do know that Forrest's contributions are completely ignored by the higher level instructors in Oom Yung Doe today, dismissing him as someone who "lost his mind" or some other typical Oom Yung Doe bullshit about past instructors who were chewed up and spit out by John Kim.

        About Instructor Dave, the story I heard was that he died, something to do with drugs or AIDS.  There's all kinds of shady stories about so many of these guys from the early days.

        Have you heard of the book "Herding the Moo"?  You might enjoy it.  It's a compilation of experiences from the early days of CMQ/CMD/OYD; it's a fun read.  Also, a lot of people talk about their experiences while in Oom Yung Doe on a discussion group on Yahoo! - http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oomyungdoe_discuss/ - I'm sure they'd love to hear from you and your brother.

         
        Reply to this
        1. 10/31/2007 8:22 PM Kathy Nauert wrote:
          ooh my God I am in shock right now. When I was 17 I met Forest Troutner & Dave Anderson (who later became my boyfriend) I knew Forest, Brenda little Forest & eve Sue. I also knew Tom McGee and many others. I sure hope you are wrong about Dave, I am totally shocked at this moment. I have been trying to find him for years to see how he is, and his mother Isabel as well...I am sitting here at work stunned. I was 17 when Dave and I met at Holiday Inn (we all worked there, Forest, Dave & me) Please respond to this. I also remember someone named Tom & Sue ( I think) And yes, I remember "the Master" even at 17 I knew there was something really wrong, thats why I broke up with Dave a few years later...He was my first real love.....
          Reply to this
    • 6/20/2007 9:55 AM Keith Lyons wrote:
      I sent the long previous post and now since I've researched it a little more I found something. If you go to the Oom Yung Doe website - unfortunatley I'm not in the picture - but I was there sitting on the floor in the room where John Kim is cutting the apple into four pieces. My brother may still have the photo we took with 'Master Kim' on that day. That picture was taken in Westmont Illinois,.
      Reply to this
    • 6/25/2007 2:41 AM Keith Lyons wrote:
      Yes, now that you tell me Tom Mcgee was only a student at the time - it is coming back. I was there when he officially became an instructor. He was a nice guy - as was instructor Dave. Dave did return for a week or so after he had to leave. I recall him telling me he had to go to Canada.
      There was another student, Dana who was only a four years older than me and I believe he was one of the first students to know something wasn't right - but he wasn't right in the head either. He used to beat up on when no one was around - until instructor Forest caught him - ha, ha, ha. Forest was always good to me. Anyway, Dana would have went to Downers Grove South High School and would have graduated in 1981. I'm sure he has a lot to say - I think they were draining his bank accounts with the promise of becoming an instructor. This might have been the how and why they developed their money squeezing techniques. They didn't want to loose student's money by telling them to hit the road but they also didn't want to give someone the authority who wasn't really qualified to open their own school. Forest and the others probably thought some of these people would just give up and move on at some point - which is a practice that could easily go bad. In retrospect I won't deny that they were all kind of nuts - but then again it was a different time period. I also believe that they first opened the Westmont school in either Woodridge or south Downers Grove and moved to Westmont a year later.
      Instructor Forest's wife was about 5' 2 and had a reddish-brown longer curly hair. Now that you've jogged my memories a bit, she might have spent time at another school - she did though instruct the group courses a couple of times in Westmont. They did have one or two small (smaller than me) children. I also have the feeling instructor Forest didn't like having them at his schools because he was a softy with his kids and that conflicted with his strict, hard image - I recall him being uncomfortable with people watching him coddle his own. I do vaguely remember the last time she came witht he kids he was angry with her for bringing them there.

      I live in Germany now, but the next time I go home to visit I will pick up the book, Herding the Moo.
      Reply to this
      1. 11/1/2007 1:31 AM KATHY wrote:
        I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS PRIOR TO TODAY BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANYONE WHO KNOW "INSTRUCTOR" DAVID ANDERSON...
        HE WAS MY FIRST LOVE WAY BACK WHEN I WAS 17. I KNOW ALL ABOUT JOHN C KIM
        Reply to this
        1. 11/25/2007 4:53 PM Jim wrote:
          Dave Anderson left Chung Mo Quan (formerly called Kong Su)stole a car from the school in Naperville. He ran the school 1 in Naperville which was moved from Westmont. After he left he worked as a bouncer and also carpenter. Died of AIDS at Northwestern Memorial Hospital.
          Reply to this
          1. 11/29/2007 1:52 PM Kathy Nauert wrote:
            How do you know all this? What year did he die?
            Reply to this
          2. 11/30/2007 5:05 PM Kathy Nauert wrote:
            Thank you for your reply, after doing some more checking on the internet I did find out that Dave died November 1, 1989 he was 31...oh my God, how terribly sad. Dave really was a good guy, he just got mixed up with the wrong people and I guess could never escape them, I find it hard not to blame John C. Kim and others for how Dave ended up. In my mind and heart they are responsible for his life being as it was. He was a teenager when Forest took him in, a troubled teen and they used him and manipulated him and they also took a part of my life away by being so controlling.

            Am I upset yes, sad yes. This still seems like an unbelievable dream to me.

            If you or anyone knows how I can get in touch with Daves sister, or if his mom is still alive please let me know I have been searching for them for years.
            Reply to this
        2. 6/8/2009 7:24 PM TopCat wrote:
          I beleive we called him Cricket...he was my good friend at the school which originated in Lisle, IL
          Reply to this
    • 6/29/2007 4:52 AM keith lyons wrote:
      I have to say that in my recollections of being 'there' at the beginning, I don't believe there was malice or an intentional plot to create a cult like atmosphere. It was a matter of circumstances and when money is involved then the circumstances digress into something unpleasant. As a side note, after reminiscing about the Chung Moo Kuan days, I recall now that Tom Mcgee's father was a somewhat famous wrestler from the 1950's. Tom was our first regular instructor but left shortly thereafter and was replaced by Dave. Tom went on to open his school. I do recall towards the end of my three years there, instructor Forest being absent and the few times he did come by, he was quite estranged and almost violent in his demeanor. Further, I lived for over two years in Dalian China - which is less than two hours from N. Korea and the city itself has many influences from Japan and the Koreas. I think the Asian idea of 'face' led to the cult like practices in Chung Moo Quan. The idea of not questioning a Master's or Instructor's words makes sense in Asia because respect demands it. Perhaps John C. Kim made outlandish claims but they were misinterpreted in the American dream. I still have to laugh when I think about how all the instructors spoke with that broken, almost Native American kind of dialect. Even as a kid, I'd try imitating them. I'm not justifying what eventually took place but I think it's understandable.
      Reply to this
      1. 7/3/2007 5:57 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
        No-one but John Kim himself can say what was intentional, in the beginning, but if you look at the way things progressed in the following decades, the cult was built up very intentionally.  There is nothing accidental about legions of OYD instructors being recruited to build and serve on "Grandmaster"s farm, living in communal houses, speaking a special dialect exclusive to the cult; years of systematic abuse of trusting people to pad Kim's bank account, while generation after generation of instructors went bankrupt and closed their schools; sexual abuse of female instructors, fairy tales of Kim's supernatural powers, the need to "prove" your unquestioning loyalty by going to jail to cover your master's lies  ... Have you read any of the things that have been going on with CMQ/CMD in the past decades?  
        The Asian sense of honor is characteristic of asian martial arts, and there are TONS of martial arts schools and martial artists who practice very idealistic and traditional martial styles without resorting to exploitation.  As opposed to all of those legit martial arts schools, Oom Yung Doe is exploitative, corrupt, and uses some of the features of Asian tradition because it helps to get people in a docile frame of mind, and its tricks people into thinking they're just "Asian".  Saving face, in the Asian sense, not only involves obedience and deferment to the teacher, but also a teacher's dedication towards the betterment of his student, because the teacher is judged by how good his students are.  In Oom Yung Doe, the cult is built up to elevate John Kim to special standing, above ethics or judgement, and used to set up a constant flow of money and servitude.  When this does not go as planned, they 'save face' by cutting off some chosen OYD minion to be slandered and blamed.  This is how schools keep closing, people keep leaving, but the OYD cult and all the associated "problems" go on.
        John Kim has made a fortune pretending that the illegal and unethical practices of OYD, and the outlandish stories, are all a result of his American students having "misunderstood" him.  Insiders who have defected from Oom Yung Doe consistently paint a different story.  It is also highly suspect that a man of John Kim's talents and love for power and control would be resigned to the actions of instructors who keep "misunderstanding" and repeating the same mistakes for decades.
        Reply to this
    • 7/2/2007 1:44 AM andrew wrote:
      I trained in Long Beach Calif. in 1980's. My instuctor there disappeared one day and no one seemed to know where he went. I have always wondered what happened to him. I kinda liked him and he seemed very skilled. I also met a man whos name was Tom Kim and he was suppossed to be "masters" brother. Any comments on this?
      Reply to this
      1. 7/3/2007 6:01 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
        Who was your instructor?  Tom Kim disappeared; he has no known connection to OYD anymore.  Some of the people he trained have stayed on as part of John Kim's inner circle.
        Reply to this
    • 7/3/2007 7:05 PM Keith Lyons wrote:
      I'm not in any way defending these peoples actions. Perhaps because I'm a philosopher I tend to look at different aspects - that and considering I left Chung Moo Kuan before getting taken for a ride. I might have too much distance from the negative aspects. I didn't know John C. Kim but only instructors Tom Mcgee, Dave and Forest. There was another instructor Tom that was very close with Forest but he had his own school somewhere else at the time I began and he only occasionally came by.
      I do know that 'face' has run amok in Asia as well and in China for example, if you go a doctor the chances that person actually studied medicine are about 50% - I should know I unnecessarily lost a finger and almost died of blood poisoning because of a Chinese doctor. The standard is only represented in maintaining important relationships - nothing else matters. If 'John C. Kim' says he jumped from a ten story building while doing the Cha Cha then that's what he did: If he's important enough then you don't question it and you are even obligated to retell the feat of the super human strength he possesses - if you want to stay on that VIP's good side (and get some perks latter on.)
      The next time you look at a pretty picture of newly built skyscrapers in any city besides Shanghai or maybe Beijing, you have to realize that most of those buildings can't be occupied because they were built by the mayors' brother or some other important contact person - whom for all practical purposes know nothing about building skyscrapers. These buildings are unstable and dangerous Face in Asia is a very powerful tool and is for Western understanding incomprehensible - but then again that's why people earn only .12 cents an hour. I taught at a university for two years and if you want to hear how a student graduates, I'd be happy to tell you - there are some students who do their work and then there are some students who's parents are wealthy or in the military and the Professor is required to give them a passing grade just for that reason.

      I'm just trying to defend my perspectives on the unfortunate outcome of Chung Moo Kuan. I am not denying John C. Kim is making money in a questionable and unethical way; this much I do agree with.
      Reply to this
      1. 7/4/2007 1:00 AM Fred Burkle wrote:

        That is an excellent point.  You are talking about corruption, stemming from the same sort of abuse of status in an environment of unquestioned authority that I loathe about Oom Yung Doe.  I agree that kind of abuse flows too easily in many eastern societies as well.  The reason why I stress the difference between tradition and corruption, is because Oom Yung Doe operates in U.S. society, benefitting from the allowances American people give for cultural tolerance.  People who love martial arts, promote the ideals and concepts of Eastern philosophy that they loosely describe as "traditional" - and the vast majority of martial artists who do so are harmless.  Because they have not taken it to the level of personal corruption like OYD has.  Somewhere in the martial arts world, in the USA, is the assumption that customers are not signing on to the lifestyle of the People's Republic of China.

        There's a lot of debate about the "cult" label, and some people say it's batted about too freely ... my personal take is (in the United States, at least) that the cult label is meaningful in cases where an organization departs from their stated business goals (which gives them an otherwise benign face in everyday American life), into a murky belief system, deceptive and abusive practices.


        Reply to this
    • 7/4/2007 3:51 AM Keith Lyons wrote:
      I agree completely with your above comment. The USA is no place for John C. Kim to do business in this manner and its unfortunate that he is able to continue his practices - one of the downsides of free, consumer societies. From what I understand from your comments, he claims people just don't understand him or his motives - I would support him going somewhere people do understand him better, and that would be back to Korea.
      Reply to this
    • 8/5/2007 12:59 AM Joan M wrote:
      My husband was a head instructor back in the late 70's early 80's. He left when we had children. He loved what he did and teaching was very important to him. Tom McGee and the others where his good friends when he was involved, but as you know when you are out you are totally out. Does anyone know what became of the core group? We live out of state and didn't really hear too much about what the final outcome was.
      Reply to this
      1. 11/1/2007 1:29 AM KATHY wrote:
        HI JOAN,

        IN THE LATE 70'S I DATED DAVID ANDERSON A BLACK BELT INSTRUCTOR UNDER FORREST TROUTNER IN WESTMONT. WE DATED UNTIL IL WAS 21. I KNEW FORREST, HIS WIFE BRENDA AND SON "LITTLE FOREST" VERY WELL. I ALSO KNEW TOM MCGEE, I THINK ANOTHER TOM ( HE WAS VERY TALL, TALLER THAN DAVE) AND HE HAD A GIRLFRIEND (MAYBE WIFE) THAT WAS ALSO AN INSTRUCTOR, I THINK HER NAME WAS SUE. ALSO, FORREST HAD A MISTRESS LIVING WITH THEM NAME SUE ( I KNEW HER, SHE ALSO SPENT TIME IN LOMBARD WITH HER FAMILY...ITS BEEN OVER 30 YEARS. I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT DAVE A LOT...LET ME KNOW WHAT IF ANYTHING YOU KNOW. THANKS SO MUCH
        Reply to this
    • 9/3/2007 8:40 PM abc wrote:
      there's a yahoo group where many past higher belts post called oomyungdoe_discuss
      Reply to this
      1. 10/11/2007 1:57 AM Jay wrote:
        I came across this website while trying to research a gym that I visited today. The gym is on East Chicago avenue in Naperville and is run by Thomas Patrick McGee. Is this the same person that you are talking about? The name of the gym is United MArtial Arts Inc. & Chinese QIGONG. Can you please go into more detail about the corruption and such as I am considering joining this gym. Thank you for your time.
        Reply to this
        1. 10/30/2007 5:14 AM Fred Burkle wrote:
          Same guy.  Tom (Pat) McGee was one of the Oom Yung Doe upper level guys who went to prison.  Many of those people came out of jail and went back to running the cult for Kim and continuing the scam that is Oom Yung Doe today, but McGee broke off from them.  I respect him for that.  There are a handful of such former OYD instructors who recognized Kim for what he was, back then, and walked away.  A few of them run another United Martial Arts outfit in Phoenix.

          To make a long story short, McGee doesn't funnel money up to Kim any more, so he's not part of the corruption.  He runs his own school, functions as an independent with some exchanges with the guys in Phoenix.  I see him as a guy who made a change late in life, and continues to make a living doing what he knows.  He has incorporated some martial arts from other, more reputable sources in his martial arts practice, but the bulk of his training (martial arts, attitude, business model) comes from his days in OYD.  So, I would recommend some comparison shopping with a few other schools/clubs before settling on his.

          Thanks for writing!
          Reply to this
          1. 11/3/2007 1:23 AM Tom mcGee wrote:
            Jay,
            If you have any questions concerning the past or what I am teaching here in Naperville, please contact me. I will be glad to answer any questions and give you a full demonstration of the 5 levels of training at United Martial Arts. After the demonstration, I encourage you to go to as many schools as you would like to compare the quality of instruction.
            Sincerely, Master McGee
            Reply to this
            1. 3/7/2008 9:00 PM Dragonfist wrote:
              Hey Instructor Tom... where did you earn and who awarded you the title of Master?
              Reply to this
            2. 3/7/2008 9:06 PM BoliverStagnasty wrote:
              Tom,

              I was one of your students back in the 1980's at the Villa Park School. I remember Forrest Troutner and wondered what ever happened to him. I also wondered what happened to David Hughes. Dave was a long time friend but we lost touch.

              Thanks.
              Reply to this
            3. 6/26/2008 2:04 PM Shermdog wrote:
              Master McGee, Not sure if you remember but I actually emailed you recently 5/16/2008 I believe. I mentioned that I was a former Chung Moo Quan student and I thought your school looked very much like Chung Moo Quan. You said you are no longer affiliated with the school. I just want to give you credit for picking up the pieces and moving on. I watched the tape on line of your school and I liked it. I guess my only question is, since you were in the organization for so long. Do you still keep in touch with any of the current Instructors? And if so how do they feel about the current state of the organization? Also, how old is John C. Kim? and what do you think will happen to the schools when he is gone?
              Reply to this
          2. 6/29/2008 11:52 PM Shermdog1 wrote:
            Fred, you seem to know quite a bit about the OMD organization. How long were you with them and what rank were you when you left? Did you ever reach regional or International instructor level?
            Reply to this
    • 11/1/2007 7:34 PM Tom mcGee wrote:
      Jay if you have questions concerning training at united martial Arts here in naperville,please feel free to call me or stop by for a demonstration anytime.

      Sincerely,
      Tom McGee
      Reply to this
      1. 3/8/2008 7:33 PM john Smith wrote:
        Is there a grandmaster in your martial art? Can you jump from the top of a 11 story building and survive? Have you ever competed in the Champion of all asia contest?
        Reply to this
      2. 3/9/2008 2:09 AM John Maser wrote:
        I lived and practiced martial art in Naperville for 37 years. I now live in Florida with my family and have not practiced martial Arts in a while due to my work load.

        I am glad you are keeping up to it and would like to contact or visit you in the future. I hope to be in Naperville sometime this summer,

        It is a great town and I known you will do well. I always admired the way you handled the schools and your students.
        The town is very lucky to have you.



        Sincerely:

        John Maser
        jemlive2@aol.com
        Reply to this
    • 12/26/2007 6:45 AM John wrote:
      I started with CMQ in the late 70s at the age of 10. I remember Dave Anderson well and had a great respect for him. I now know what CMQ was having been involved in the organization for 10 years. Dave was a great guy and part of my psyche. Now, older, as an adult, I realize what he probably became involved in and am as saddened now hearing of his loss as I was when I was teenager. I would appreciate hearing more about him. I rememeber the confusion I and everyone felt when he left. What was the real reason he disappearred?
      Reply to this
    • 12/31/2007 7:18 PM JT wrote:
      Hello all of this was very interesting to read. I was a former student in Worth IL the school was on Harlem Ave located in the mini strip mall. This was the mid-eighties and I left after becoming a 1st section. The lead instructor was Tom but I do not remember the assistant instructors. Has anybody went to that school from here?
      Reply to this
    • 1/19/2008 11:23 PM nyctc7 wrote:
      I will second what someone alrady wrote:

      Many answers are available at

      http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oomyungdoe_discuss/

      A very active discussion board about CMQ/CMD/OYD
      Reply to this
    • 3/8/2008 5:16 PM john Smith wrote:
      What ever happened to David Hughes? He trained under Tom McGee before Tom was sent off to prison for his a 60 month term. David rose to the level of 7th degree black belt and has now left the cult that is moo.

      As for Tom McGee does anyone know if he stills speaks in the pseudo, affected broken-style of English? Does he still require students to pay in cash and not receive a copy of contracts they are required to sign? Does he still require his students to pay for and pick up his lunch and dinner? These are things he used to do as an instructor in CMQ. I would know as I was one of his students for several years. I wouldn't put up with this crap now and I would recommend anybody considering signing up for training with him keep this in mind and ask upfront if these type of services will be required to advance through the ranks.
      Reply to this
      1. 3/15/2008 10:16 PM dragonfist wrote:
        hey instructor tom is there a highview restaurant by your current school that you make current students make you get your pattymelts at?
        Reply to this
        1. 3/19/2008 7:55 PM john Smith wrote:
          My guess is that Tom dines at Portillos on a regular basis. I would bet he has a Portillos menu in his desk.
          Reply to this
    • 4/8/2008 3:59 AM Royal Dragon wrote:
      As for Tom McGee does anyone know if he stills speaks in the pseudo, affected broken-style of English

      Reply]
      See for yourself.

      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2975248489866886666
      Reply to this
    • 4/16/2008 1:09 PM john Smith wrote:
      Royal Dragon,

      Thanks for the video clip. I would not have recognized Tom by his appearance but his voice is certainly familiar to me. His demonstrations are the same as he used way back in the early 1980's especially the one where he was demonstrating on a student whose back was facing the camera, and was in close proximity to the camera, and Tom was attacking with a tiger claw like he was scratching the eyes out of his opponent. I wonder how well this technique would work against an opponent who was punching hard for Tom's face. I think Tom would end up on the losing end.

      It is good to hear that Tom's Engrish has improved.
      Reply to this
    • 6/18/2008 8:55 AM Darren Cobin wrote:
      I practiced chung moo doe/oom yung doe from 1995 to 2005. I was also an assistant instructor for a good part of that time. I had the chance to handle a school for a while. I had the chance to be around many of the higher level instructors of the time, and the chance to be around Grandmaster Kim on several occasions. Overall 99.99% of the time everyone i've been around were good honorable people. The few times I was around him, Grandmaster Kim was always very humble, friendly, and funny. And most of the higher belts i've been around were great instructors and nice normal guys. Some of them have their arrogant or stubborn moments or can be maybe too intense sometimes but they always cared about students and instructors and wanted people to benefit from their training. In my opinion I do think the training is too expensive for the general population, but they have a right to charge whatever they want. Real estate seminars, sales seminars, Tony Robbins seminars, and all sorts of other education cost $5000-20,000 but you don't hear people calling it a cult or illegal. Some of you people on here really exaggerate and blow things out of proportion. No one is ever forced to do anything. If you pay a lot of money for something and you don't like it, lesson learned and you don't have to do it anymore. If you don't like being an instructor do something else. Why is it people don't take any personal responsibility and come to terms with that? I paid plenty of money to go to college and didn't get much out of it, but i'm not blaming anyone or hurling accusations. I don't regret a single dime I spent on my martial arts training. I got so much out of it, and really enjoyed my time around students and instructors of all levels. I felt better when I was doing oom yung doe then I do now doing mostly conventional exercise. Even though I quit 3 years ago I still have better flexibility, strength, balance, speed and coordination than most people I know. I really don't get why people insult the movement of oom yung doe. I think that video clip of Tom Mcgee is very impressive. The quickness and sharpness of his movement is very apparent, and no one ever gives credit that all of these higher belts are in their 40's and 50's. Most people in their teens, 20's and 30's don't move that well. I'm only 28 and I don't have the power or skills that they do, and i'm a very athletic guy. Anyone that has been around most present or past national instructors should know from experience that these guys are strong, powerful, quick, skilled, and know a lot of movement. If the lineage isn't real then where did all these forms come from. Who cares what the lineage is. The movement is all that really matters. My only real complaint other than the price of training is that oom yung doe tries to separate itself so much from other martial arts. I think it should embrace other martial arts students and instructors as brothers instead of as perceived foes or competition. That's my 2cents
      Reply to this
      1. 6/24/2008 4:23 PM imalover wrote:
        Spoken like someone who has never done anything other than CMD/OYD. You even still speak like a loyal moo student. The truth about McGee's video is that it "looks" impressive to someone who doesn't know any better, for example, you, or complete beginners in the martial arts. To someone who really knows something, for example, NOBODY in the moo, that demo is not-so-good, to say the least.

        The college comment you made sounds like a quote from the "higher" goofs when the "international system" started. They used to say that all the time...probably because NONE of them even went to college. How come you didn't get much out of college? Did you even go to class every day, study, get a real degree? I'd say you are sorely missing something.

        I was an extremely loyal moo...in much longer than you, higher rank, etc. etc. Try to find a real teacher or master, and see what the difference is; that is the best way to form an opinion about the martial arts. You'll find that most of what you did in OYD was fancy-looking exercise, NOT real martial arts.

        Answer this question - if you paid lots of money for any product or service, and figured out later that it wasn't really what it was advertised to be, wouldn't you be upset?

        That's what happened to you, only you don't realize it.

        Think about that for a while.

        IMALOVER
        Reply to this
      2. 6/24/2008 4:26 PM Shermdog wrote:
        I practiced Chung Moo Quan in the 80’s and 90’s in Burlington MA. I recently went for a free lesson at an OYD school. The instructor was very impressive and very nice. However they are a bit to expensive for me. I then checked out some schools in my area called Body Mind systems. It is the exact martial art as Chung Moo Quan / Oom Young Doe. Their Uniforms are the same they dye their belts the whole thing. The difference was when I went in for my free lesson the Instructor was awful. I went to another one of there schools in my area. The Assistant Instructor was far better but the Head Instructor told me he will not teach any former Chung Moo Quan students. They are trying to separate themselves from that organization. I thought it was odd that they want to separate from Chung Moo Quan but they continue to teach the same martial art. I have since learned that there were many former Instructors that opened schools under this new name Body Mind Systems. I wish them luck. Although If they are teaching the same martial art; who is there to make sure the Higher Belts continue to learn and pass the knowledge down? Without a Grandmaster (even a potentially corrupt one) there is no one person to correct the higher ranking instructors. I feel they have two choices. Train in a new martial art and incorporate it into the Chung Moo or go back to OYD and continue there learning. I have since found my former Chung Moo Quan Instructor. He is now a 6th Degree Black Belt in 5 Elements Kung Fu. I test for my Yellow belt this Friday. I am very excited to be back in Martial Arts. There were many positive aspects of Chung Moo Quan. It is to bad a few bad apples had to screw up a good thing.
        Reply to this
        1. 6/24/2008 7:24 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
          Shermdog,

          It's good to hear you've found an instructor who has educated himself outside of Oom Yung Doe/Chung Moo Doe.  I agree with your opinion that it's better for former OYD instructors to train in a new system, although I can't agree that it would be equally good to go back to OYD and continue to learn there - because the higher up you get in OYD, the farther you get from any kind of good martial art practice, and the more your time is wasted proving loyalty to egomaniacal buffoons.  At least in the lower levels you get a rigorous physical workout.  If anybody is unfortunate enough to have signed up at OYD, instead of using that time and money at a legit martial arts school, they are better off leaving OYD.  Ex-OYD instructors who don't start learning from other teachers aren't going to get any better than OYD "higher belts", but they aren't any worse either.  If you continue to learn in OYD you will only learn more pretty dance movements with zero depth, zero intellectual or technical understanding.

          One thing you said is a bit baffling:"It is to bad a few bad apples had to screw up a good thing. "  Previously in the paragraph you indicate that you have knowledge of Grandmaster's "potentially corrupt" reputation.  Then how is it that "a few bad apples" screwed up the system?  The most rational perusal of the facts surrounding Oom Yung Doe pretty unanimously points at the root of the system - the Grandmaster - as the prime source of all things rotten in Oom Yung Doe.
          Reply to this
          1. 6/24/2008 11:10 PM Shermdog1 wrote:
            I was a second section just about ready to test for my third section when I left the school. I had to move to Indiana. I have no knowledge of the higher ranking belts and their training so I could only base my opinion on my limited experience. I will say that my Instructor was then and is now an honorable man. What I have read recently about OYD and John C. Kim is freighting. I recently checked out the Somerville and Watertown MA schools. Both Instructors were very nice and very good martial artist. It is a shame they are involved in such a corrupt organization.
            Reply to this
        2. 6/24/2008 8:52 PM imaluvr wrote:
          A good tree bears good fruit. What's with all the rotted fruit in CMQ/CMD/OYD? The "few bad apples" comment was something that the higher doofuses (sp?) passed down as a good explanation to protect their organization's blunders. Kim is the big bad apple...everyone else follows along like a robot.

          Is your instructor Tom Adams? I heard good things about him. The more you train under other masters/teachers in different styles, the more you will figure out how rudimentary and basic, or downright crappy the CMQ/CMD/OYD "moo-vements" really are.

          Just some words of wisdom, from a former LONG-TIME moo, and now practitioner of other much better stuff.

          imaluvr (I know I spelled it differently last time!)
          Reply to this
          1. 6/25/2008 7:47 PM Shermdog wrote:
            You are correct about Tom Adams being my instructor. He really is a great martial artist and over all good person. When I first met him, the lessons were a gift from my mother for my 17th birthday. Now 19 years later after looking into many schools, Body Mind systems, OMD included, I found him on line. I went down and caught up with him and signed up a week later. Using gift money my family gave me for my 36th Birthday. Full circle.
            On a side note. I have the email addresses of the OYD Instructors I met. Should I email them this info? They are young mid to late twenties. 1st and 2nd degree Instructors. Maybe they are not aware of the Devil they work for. This info could be useful. OR do you think I would be wasting my time?
            Reply to this
            1. 6/25/2008 8:23 PM imaluvr wrote:
              Yes, you should forward this information, as well as the information on the Yahoo oomyungdoe discussion group. Those two are being taken advantage of, and lied to, you can bet on it. Brad and Rob (the regionals in Boston) are not above the corruption in OYD.

              Good luck -

              Imaluvr
              Reply to this
      3. 6/25/2008 3:39 AM James Keyes wrote:
        Hello Darrin!

        Well said, though some will flame you for having had overall, a good experience, same as me.

        I can vouch for Darrin being a very athletic guy. Also, I remember consulting my notes while you just smiled and pointed to your head and said, "I got it all up here." And I said, "Get back to me in 10 years and we'll see." So, do you still remember all your movement?

        It has been a few years. I have often wondered what you have been up to? I hope you are doing fine. I actually still have the video of you and I demonstrating sparring in the tournament 1999? or 2000 era tournament where we won first place!

        When we moved to CA back in 99 to open Tustin, your ambition was to be an instructor. But your instructors did everything possible to encourage you to go to college. We didn't want you to pass on that and I am glad to hear that you didn't. The rationale was, main instructor or not, you would have more options in life with a degree and relate better to educated students.

        I hope you have only good memories of me and Chad...or mostly anyway. But I do have a bone to pick with you over one item! email me.

        take care,

        JK
        Reply to this
        1. 6/25/2008 7:04 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
          Hi James,

          Whether Darren is an athletic guy has little to do with how well equipped he is to judge martial technique!  In Oom Yung Doe, Tai Chi Chung is not Tai Chi, Aikido is taught as "joint manipulation", Bagwa is loyal only to the most beginner level, and then made up kung fu mishmash from there .... these are only a few examples of flat out lies propagated in OYD.  The be-all and end-all of all claims in OYD is "John Kim said so", regardless of what the rest of the world says.  Without having devoted some time to learning what peer recognized martial arts lineages have, all one has is what you have learned in OYD.  And what you have learned in OYD is simply whatever John Kim felt like promoting to his very insular group.

          I didn't respond to Mr. Cobin's remark on purpose.  I believe that he is honest, and is not a current moo posing as a former student trying to play smoke and mirrors to promote OYD.  However, too much of his reasoning reeks of the very common rationalizations I've heard repeatedly from OYD instructors (myself included, when I used to be one!), which ultimately only serve to obfuscate the issues. 

          Here's an example: Mr. Cobin says "Overall 99.99% of the time everyone i've been around were good honorable people. The few times I was around him, Grandmaster Kim was always very humble, friendly, and funny."  It's clear to see most of the people who are attracted to be instructors in OYD are attracted by the high moral values that are preached on the surface.  Most people who want to be OYD instructors highly value honor, integrity and caring for their fellow men.  However, once you are an instructor, the bottomline, the most "correct " way to be a good instructor, is to make people pay more money.  Quite commonly, this is done by withholding instruction, by making a show of teaching more and "better" to the student who is paying more that month, in front of another student who is paying less.  Sometimes this is done to students who have already paid thousands of dollars for a course, simply because they said no to the latest greatest idea that OYD is currently trying to sell.  What is honorable about that?  When students are passed in tests just so that you can get them onto the next course - and the next payment plan - without investing the time neccessary to teach them good skill and physical prowess - what is honorable about that?  When a student's practice time is compromised to use them for free advertising (passing flyers), free labor (handling school), and the worship of Kim, or paying monetary gifts to Kim, is more important than physical fitness, technical skill and self defense ability, and all of this is justified as "mental achievement" - what is honorable about that?  When 1st and 2nd degree students are coaxed to "invest" in failing schools without revealing the actual $$ of back debt they will be responsible for, without revealing that fact that, year after year, in every region of the US, OYD schools get sucked dry by John Kim and his cronies, instructors are abused behind closed doors, and discredited to their subordinates, and eventually left bankrupt and broken down - what is honorable about that?  THAT is the problem with being an OYD instructor - regardless of your initial intent, when you want to be an intructor, OYD takes good people and pushes their ethics to the brink.  Students trust their instructors because they have honorable intent.  OYD uses that to promote their agenda of selling lies for top dollar, and feeding John Kim's ego.  Until it's time to close down the school and move on to the next new location, on the shoulders of a new naive and honorable instructor.  Then watch him descend.  Rinse and repeat.

          The things I have mentioned above happen in every single OYD school, across the U.S.  It's hard not to see a pattern.  Given these facts, how does it really matter whether John Kim was "humble, friendly and funny" around a student who was, at the time, giving John Kim exactly what he wanted?  Take a look at how he treats people when he doesn't have your servitude and open wallet.  Take Tom McGee.  If you think he moves well, fair enough.  I think he moves on par with Jerry Barfield, if not better.  But try asking Jerry, Mike, Joe or Bob what they think of Tom McGee's skill level.  They trained in the same style, and Tom McGee still credits John Kim as his teacher.  If OYD people are such honorable men, why are they so keen to discredit a former brother (who stood by them long enough to have suffered jailtime, just like the rest of them) simply because he no longer funnels money to John Kim?

          Reply to this
          1. 7/18/2008 9:00 PM Shermdog wrote:
            What do you think will happen to the Oom Yung Doe organization when John C. Kim is gone? He has to be in his late 70's by now? Will they continue to screw everyone involved or do you think without his influence they will the try to become legitimate?
            Reply to this
        2. 6/25/2008 8:20 PM imaluvr wrote:
          I remember Darrin...he's lucky. Our higher dorks would DISCOURAGE instructors or potential instructors from finishing college or higher education. A few people listened, and now I believe they are sorry for the wrong choices they made due to the misguidance of the higher dopes.
          Reply to this
    • 8/12/2008 6:05 AM authority wrote:
      Hello,

      About 4 months ago I joined an OYD school in wisconsin. I had never done any martial arts with the exception of a semester of tai chi in college (i'm in my mid-30's) but I needed to get in shape and had always been fascinated with Kung Fu. Also I had enrolled my 8 year-old son in Judo and wanted to relate to him in that regard.
      I did some googling for martial arts in my area and found most of it to be tae kwando or muay thai or MMA. I wasn't all that interested in that and didn't want to spend $100 plus a month just to fight.
      So I see this school that has judo, tai chi and kung fu (all the things I'm interested in) and it is near my office. I go and the instructor is cool and I find they even practice meditation (something I've attempted on and off for years). To top it off I'm told that this isn't a fight school and that ethical principles play a part in the teaching (I have a degree in Philosophy with an emphasis on Ethics and am always interested in a living ethics). So I sign on for a 2 month intro and saw and felt physical changes I hadn't experienced in 4 years humping it lifting weights and cardio at my local gym at $65 a month. So my time for a 2 year program comes up and I decide to go with it. And until reading all of this and more on youtube, yahoo, etc. I've been pretty happy with things. I find the herbal sprays and stuff a little less scientific and more aesthetic and also took the Grandmaster's feats with a grain of salt but I never felt as though i was being conned. Actually, despite reading all of this, I still don't because as I mentioned, I feel better physically now than before I started. I've read the accounts of cult-like behavior and have yet to experience anything akin to that - basically I go there 2 or 3 times a week after work and practice then come home to my wife and kids. Sometimes if work is hectic (I'm in sales) I miss my class for a week and am not harrassed or anything.
      So as I say, I'm not disputing others accounts and I'm a novice with MA but at the same time it is seeming to enhance my life and isn't much more expensive than other schools in my area that don't teach the things I was looking for. Of course a critic will say well OYD isn't teaching what I what I am looking for either however the judo I am learning seems to be the same as the judo my 8 year-old is learning (his instructor has produced at least 1 olympian) so I feel good about that.
      Anyway, that's my experience thus far and so I guess my question is what makes the movements and such 'inauthentic'? Again, I'm a novice but when I watch the videos of Jerry and Joe I find them impressive? I watch that show Mind, Body and Kickin Moves on Fox Sports and see some things I recognize from class and think that's cool, I get that. I guess I'm learning something but now I'm not sure what anymore. (and please don't say I'm learning crap) Those that trained with OYD, will I walk away from this will a good MA understanding?
      Reply to this
      1. 8/12/2008 3:33 PM imalover wrote:
        "and that ethical principles play a part in the teaching (I have a degree in Philosophy with an emphasis on Ethics and am always interested in a living ethics)"

        ** The above is true, but only in words to get you to pay more money and stay longer. Many unethical things were done, and continue to be done, to get more money and control from the students. Jeremy is a nice guy, so you probably won't see unethical stuff from him, but it's the ones above him in rank that violate the ethical principles, and contradict their own teachings time and time again. FYI - mostly everything you read on this board, and the Yahoo group board (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oomyungdoe_discuss) are real experiences and truths about OYD, and the same people you are learning from, or will eventually learn from.

        Yes, OYD will get you in shape...they are good at this, but sometimes they push the wrong people too hard, and injuries occur. Many of their instructors are not trained properly, and cause bodily harm through poor teaching ability.(the comment about "not a fight school" very much shows their lack of understanding about the martial arts, and they are basically cheating you out of real martial arts ability...exercising and getting in shape is not what the martial arts are about...only a small part)

        Have they started hittin' you up for all the $500-$600 seminars yet? They are required to reach black belt, in addition to your 2-year course. Or, they didn't tell you that yet, which is typical. Read the posters, unless they took those down by now.

        I'll make this very simple - you will not walk away with a good MA understanding. You will have bits and pieces of many different styles, but no REAL understanding of any one style. Your overall structure and mechanics will be faulty at best. In short, OYD is not what they claim to be. They have very little knowledge of alot of things, but if you feel that because you are getting in better shape, and feel better physically, then you have to weigh that feeling against the money you are paying, and will be asked to pay in the future.

        Good luck,

        IMAlover
        Reply to this
        1. 8/12/2008 10:00 PM authority wrote:
          There was a seminar but I didn't have the money. They didn't stress me for it so I didn't think much of it. Being in sales I can see the sales process in all of this but I guess, being in sales, I didn't mind it...nor do I mind saying no to things.

          As I understand it many of you were involved with the school. Can I ask, how long you were involved and what MA did you pursue afterward? And, did you feel behind the curve when you began?

          I don't know, like I said I have nothing to compare this to. The other school in the area teaching anything close to what I was looking for charges $140 for Kung Fu and Tai Chi and $20 for anything additional so I figured $200 at OYD was a bargain (based on the whole 8 styles idea).

          I'm not an idiot and hate being duped so I'm trying my best to come to a reasonable conclusion about all of this before I make any decision. I can value your opinions only so much as I don't know you and you're just names on a screen but I do appreciate your insights.

          One of my best friends from my college philosophy days has been studying MA in Taipei, Taiwan for the past several years (though he never visited the 'iron penis' gym and as luck would have it he is visiting the area in the next couple weeks. I am going to lay all of this out for him, show him what I've learned and ask his opinion. Based on that I'll make my decision. If you're interested I'll let you know what I decide.
          thanks again.
          Reply to this
          1. 8/13/2008 2:41 PM IMAlover wrote:
            Well, they will start brow-beatin' you soon for those seminars...I promise you it will be an issue soon enough.

            I was in OYD much longer than "sober" was, and I have been training in 4 of the styles that OYD claims to teach since I left the OYD organization. From my experiences, you most certainly will lack alot of abilities that are normally taught by teachers outside of OYD, should you choose to leave and learn from a good teacher with a verifiable lineage. You won't normally find the real good ones in the phone book, or in a commercial school, FYI. You have to do some digging and research.

            One thing - I'm not here trying to persuade you to quit. If you feel like you are getting your money's worth, than by all means, stay. Like you said, come up to your own decision based on what you hear, feel and see.
            Reply to this
    • 8/12/2008 4:38 PM soberjudgement wrote:
      authority,

      If you read the FILES/LINKS/PHOTO sections on the yahoo group page, then also read "Herding the Moo" by Joe Smith.

      Tell me something, would you go to a doctor or a lawyer who has a criminal record for professional help? A doctor/lawyer who has been convicted in a court of law and sentenced to a [60] year prison term? Court documents are in the Files section. If you saw the the youtube vids on the criminal trial, then how can you deny the history of oomyungdoe?

      Just ask your instructor if there is a verifiable lineage for oomyungdoe. Also ask why john c. kim/jack park doesn't demonstrate his "extraordinary" feats of "skill and ability" in public. Didn't some schools close in the Wisconsin recently?

      stay sober
      Reply to this
    • 8/12/2008 9:27 PM authority wrote:
      thank you for your response staysober. As I understand it, a school did close but that was due to location and they plan on reopening in a more high traffic area.

      Again, let me reiterate I am a novice at MA and still new to OYD so I'm not attempting to defend their history etc. I'm writing on this board because compared to the other boards on the subject you folks seem more reasonable and less inflammatory.

      That being said, I do enjoy a good debate and so in response to your comment about a doctor/lawyer with criminal record etc., I guess I would respond by saying that some of my intellectual hero's include Freud (a coc head), Nietzsche (syphillis from prostitute), Joyce (alcoholic), Socrates (enemy of the state) - in other words, in some instances the person's criminal past doesn't necessarily inform the person's expertise in another field, you know?
      That being said I guess what I'm interested in/concerned about is the charge that he isn't an expert in the field.
      As I mentioned, I take some of his 'feats' with a grain of salt just as I take some of the Bruce Lee lore with a grain of salt just as I take some of the stuff I see on Mind, Body and Kickin' Moves (did you guys see the episode where they visited the gym touting 'iron penis' training???) with a grain of salt.
      There are pictures of a younger Kim all over the school in different poses that look cool and my instructor seems good but again, I'm no expert.

      Thanks again for your insight.
      Reply to this
      1. 8/12/2008 10:53 PM soberjudgement wrote:
        authority,

        I understand/agree with your argument concerning your heroes up to a certain point. Our founding fathers who signed the Constituion were all white, wealthy, slave owners and elitists. But their [intent] was to recognize and facilitate a country/republic guaranteeing individual rights. Your respective heroes made their mark by challenging the status quo and breaking new ground and that pissed off the "establishment".

        I was involved with oom yung doe for thirteen years. I am asking you to take a careful look at existing information about this group. I cannot tell you what to do because you will resist and label me as a disgruntled 'bad apple'.

        If you want to debate the substance of my position, then I would be more than happy to share my experiences. But I must insist that you read through the FILES/PHOTOS/LINKS sections of the yahoo message board. I also recommend that you read "Herding the Moo" by Joe Smith; this is written by an ex-moo who went through the oomyngdoe system during the early years.

        Did Madison and Hales Corner close?

        soberjudgement
        Reply to this
      2. 8/12/2008 10:56 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
        In the spirit of good debate, I think there are some glaring differences between the personal flaws of your other intellectual heros, and John C. Kim.  All of those people were respected by their peers for their talents and achievements, despite their personal flaws or anti-establishment reputation.  John C. Kim isn't.  The only place he has any recognition is within his own cult of OYD.  He claims a lineage that doesn't exist; he won tournaments that didn't exist; he teaches movements that look like one style or another on the surface, but lack the core principles that define each particular style; he has no peer recognition, doesn't learn from or exchange knowledge with any other martial arts master or scholar; his "philosophical writings" are no more than proverbs and fables plucked from eastern traditions geared towards suspension of your own judgement and belief in Kim's system of ethics.  If you go to any master in the martial arts world, either they will not know who John C. Kim is, or they will smirk at the name.  Freud, Nietzsche, Joyce and Socrates all made gargantuan contributions to their field of study.  John C. Kim has made none.  He is King Kong on his own personal island of OYD.

        Also, any OYD instructor is supposed to believe that John C. Kim is a spiritually superior person, and OYD is his way of leading people to a better life.  Doesn't defrauding people (the very reason why he went to jail) say exactly the opposite about his qualifications as a spiritual guide?  If Nietzsche's or Joyce's claim to fame were by preaching abstinence, or Socrates' claim to fame was as a patriotic loyalist, then I think the analogy to John C. Kim may be more appropriate.  What Kim practices in real life directly contradicts what his followers say about him, yet it is essentially what he is selling through OYD.  It makes it very difficult to say "So what" to his past transgressions.  Notably, he doesn't even admit that he did anything wrong, he blames it on "mistakes" made by his folowers, and after getting out of jail, he went back to doing the same things, only taking care not to get too successful in any one area, and frequently moving locations, so they don't attract the wrong kind of attention.  How's that for ethical principles.



        Reply to this
    • 8/13/2008 12:18 AM authority wrote:
      Again, this is what I'm most interested in , this is the crux of the issue:

      "He claims a lineage that doesn't exist; he won tournaments that didn't exist; he teaches movements that look like one style or another on the surface, but lack the core principles that define each particular style; he has no peer recognition, doesn't learn from or exchange knowledge with any other martial arts master or scholar"

      and I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge at this time.

      However, aside from that, what exactly did he do time for? Was it tax evasion?

      ps. yes, I'm not overly impressed with his book.
      Reply to this
      1. 8/13/2008 3:46 PM soberjudgement wrote:
        authority,

        The court documents in the Files section(yahoo message board) will answer your questions on the criminal nature of jckim/jack park and oomyungdoe. jckim/jack park, joe jakosalem, and mike mckay all served a [60]month prison sentence. tom white and bob sawinski served 12mo. for pleading guilty to superseding information(perjury).

        You should also look at the youtube vids "Cult and the Con".

        Ask your instructor if the 'oomyungdoe lineage' can be corroborated by an outside/independent source. Who was wang-po and when did he exist. Or, where could one read the bios of previous generation oomyungdoe masters. There should be bios on all eight?

        soberjudgement
        Reply to this
      2. 8/13/2008 4:10 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
        I must tell you, you won't get any better in your ability to judge by continuing in OYD, because all you will learn is to gauge things through the compass of OYD.  Which will be a big game of smoke and mirrors, with the inevitable conclusion that everything outside OYD is inferior, and nobody is worthy of judging OYD.

        I know some people feel, since they've already paid for it, they can get their money's worth of exercise by continuing to attend OYD classes.  Under no circumstances will OYD refund your money, so you may feel like staying; as long as you keep vigilant that you don't let yourself get talked into further extravagant purchases (seminars, MIP, accelerated "opportunities", etc) or recruiting friends and family members, I guess you have nothing to lose.  But, even if you choose to keep attending classes there, there are other ways you can educate yourself to be a better judge.

        Each of my statements about Kim are testable.  To judge the veracity of Kim's lineage, ask your OYD instructor for a detailed lineage tree, and take it to any source - Chinese, Korean, or Japanese practitioners; MA journals in the library - to research it.  Any legitimate MA practitioner will be able to give this to you, and the lineage will be corroborated by records & interrelated history of other MA lineages.  You can also verify other statements of Kim's achievements in the same way.  Peer recognition is no different from professional reputation, such as board certification, in any other field.  If they are true, then you will be able to find corroboration from sources outside OYD.  Go to anyone who has trained in martial arts for a long time, and ask them what they know about "Grandmaster Iron Kim", or "John Chull Kim" or "Oom Yung Doe".  I can guarantee, either they never have heard of him/it, or they will have an unflattering opinion.

        Judging the value of OYD movements requires more effort.  Partly, this is because OYD isn't the sole proprietor of poor martial arts - unfortunately, a lot of commercial schools are also not very high quality.  (But, to their credit, most of them don't charge as much money as OYD.)  Often, you will find that the more exclusive and "better than everybody else" they claim to be, the more they lack depth of knowledge.  A good MA group will be confident in telling you what they do well, without wasting time on comparisons.  Also, like someone else said, most high quality MA teachers don't have storefronts in commercial areas, or take out big ads in the yellow pages.  Most of us had to bite the bullet and trained outside OYD for quite a while before we understood how structurally deficient OYD forms are.  It may take a few months of a good internal teacher until you can feel the difference between internal training and what OYD calls internal training (but is actually dynamic breathing characteristic of hard forms, not of Tai Chi or Bagua).  In fact what OYD teaches as Tai Chi Chung and tai chi applications defies all principles of Tai Chi, no matter how butterflylike Assistant Regional Head Instructor Blah Blah may flap his wings.  Aikido is a beautiful internal art form, but OYD instructors will tell you it's essentially joint manipulation.  Spend a few months with a low key Aikido group, and you'll see the difference yourself.

        Even seemingly simple things, like holding a position, or kicking or punching ... there's a reason why numerous OYD students - and instructors, as they get older - end up with bad injuries.  It's because OYD instructors practice structurally deficient ways of practicing and teaching these, and they push it onto their students to do these harder and faster, without the knowledge to detect poor structure and correct it.  In the short run, you'll feel more athletic; in the long run, your body breaks down.  That's what you get when a system promotes people based on how much money they've paid and rewards instructors for blind faith.

        People who want to find genuine MA masters find them through word of mouth, through other MA students who have spent some time learning from a few different people, and developing a gauge of who is in it for the love of the art, and who is in it for ego or money.  You can talk to such people in person, or online.  If you want to find someone in internal MA, http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/ is an excellent resource.  I'm sure there are others out there for any of the styles that you want to test.

        [Ed Note: this post has been edited several times in response to corrections on the location of the actual emptyflower site.  Thanks for the update]
        Reply to this
    • 8/13/2008 5:34 PM authority wrote:
      thanks Fred, I will take a look at emptyflower asap!
      Reply to this
      1. 8/13/2008 5:43 PM Fred Burkle wrote:
        My mistake - I initally said emptyflower.com - but it's actually emptyflower.NET
        I've edited my previous comment.
        Reply to this
    • 8/13/2008 8:39 PM Royal Dragon wrote:
      Actually, you were right the first time. Emptyflower.net is run by a con artists hoping to capitalize on brand confusion. The real Emptyflower site is at www.emptyflower.com

      The emptyflower.COM is the original Emptyflower and the one with all the knowledgeable people as well as the hsing I database.

      The site owner is in the process of redoing his site at the moment, so you have to go to the forum directly at http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3/
      Reply to this
    • 8/13/2008 10:18 PM Mike Strong wrote:
      If you want emptyflower,COM you have to go straight to the forum via :

      http://emptyflower.com/phpBB3

      otherwise you will go to emptyflower.NET ...

      ... not that there is anything wrong with that, ( I mean, - if that's what you're into).

      I drink strong ales, eat red meat, and am sexually attractted to women; so I go to emptyflower.COM

      But hey, - to each his own !
      Reply to this
    • 8/14/2008 5:58 PM Emptyflowernet wrote:
      We would just like to apologize for the unfortunate actions of Mike Strong and Royal Dragon. There is no need to drag the internal conflicts of a given community out onto an unrelated part of the web. We deeply regret our name being used as part of a public bickering on someone else's site. I've now perma-banned both of these gentlemen and apologize for their outburst.
      Everyone is welcome at emptyflower.net who has a genuine interest in discussion of authentic internal chinese martial arts. We maintain an atmosphere based on an ethos of classical liberalism, respect for truth, and tolerance of differences in characteristics that have no effect on one's gongfu (such as race, sexual orientation etc.).

      thanks
      Y. Aksijaha (Root Admin - ef.net)
      Reply to this
    • 10/21/2008 5:11 AM teme wrote:
      hi gang!
      wow im stunned i didnt know about this site until today
      i was a CMQ student at the Villa Park school run by Tom Maggy he taugh me well. him and instructor Larry, great people. i loved CMQ during that times i look back with good feelings. Instructor Tom would used me for demonstrations. i remenber Frank Collerton, great person , i was upset by the tv news / bad publicity and all that.i was there from 85 to 90 or so on and off caused of work/jobs. made it to 4th section tested for 5th section but failed the test. came back when instructor Larry made it asst/ head instructor , the 3 months later or so made it to Head Instrucotr then asst. regional. the instructor Dave took over i think that was his name. after that i left caused of work. Im glad that Master Tom is doing fine. you can make mistakes, get into trouble, but in the ned you should be given a 2nd chance. ireally would love to find out about the many instructor from that era. where are they? how they `r doing etc.
      be well
      Teme
      Reply to this
      1. 10/22/2008 5:58 PM imaluver wrote:
        Frank Cullerton is a school owner in New England. Tom McGee is a school owner in Naperville, IL. Larry Monte is a school owner somewhere in Florida.

        In my humble opinion, they still operate from the "moo mindset" on most things...meaning, they never truly separated themselves from the moo. You may not understand that statement, due to the short time you were there.

        It does seem like they are doing better now that they are away from the CMQ/OYD system, and you are right - they all deserve a second chance, only AFTER they quit OYD.

        Anyone else?
        Reply to this
        1. 11/1/2008 3:39 AM teme wrote:
          hi Gang!
          thanks for the replai imaluver.
          what ever hapened to David Hughes?
          he was an instructor at Villa Park CMQ
          Reply to this
          1. 11/4/2008 2:48 PM Imaluver wrote:
            He made it to 7th degree national instructor, and lived in Boston, then San Diego for a while, but all of a sudden, him and his wife (head instructor Sarah) disappeared, and nobody would say what happened. This was about 4 years ago.

            I guess he finally woke up to all the crap that was around him...he was kind of a jerk for a while, a little arrogant, but I think we all went through that phase, believing we were something that we were not. When reality finally hits, it's a rude awakening!
            Reply to this
    • 10/21/2008 1:27 PM Shermdog1 wrote:
      All of the info you are looking for can be found here http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oomyungdoe_discuss/
      Check out the "Files" section.
      Reply to this
    • 1/12/2009 11:53 PM carey grayson wrote:
      My recollections may not matter much. My belt number was #12 in the school of Westmont. #1 was Forrest Troutner. I was introduced to Kung Su, as it was known back then in 1974/75 by a good friend who shall remain nameless. At that time, the school was taught out of Forrest Troutner's garage in Westmont. Tom White and Dave Anderson were students at that time and that is where I first met John C Kim (known otherwise as Master) for the first time in the garage school. I learned that Forrest first met Master Kim at an apartment complex where they both worked in maintenance. Forrest wanted to show off his martial arts skills, but Master Kim easily flipped him on his back and Forrest ran after him asking how he did that. Shortly after that first meeting, Forrest opened a new school in Westmont calling it “John C Kim’s school of Chung Moo Quan” I wondered why the name change, but now I suspect it was due to tax evasion reasons. I became very active spending 3 to 4 nights a week working out. I must say, the training was very helpful to me. Back then, my self esteem and self confidence was pretty low. Perhaps that is the type of personalities Master Kim preyed on, I don’t know, but I signed up for the “instructor” program from Master Kim himself and started giving large portions of my paycheck on a regular basis. I did notice that if you had lots of money to give, you got special attention from Master Kim as he personally instructed you himself. I eventually got married, but not without a great deal of pressure from Master Kim, Forrest and Tom not to do so. She was pregnant and I refused to let my own blood be born into this world without his father. I paid for that later; unable to give large sums of money, my favor within the school diminished drastically. I was pretty naïve back then. We were told that everyone outside (as in on the street) was dead and that they had “no life” as Master Kim would say. He was very convincing and made you feel you were involved in something special. He used to tell a lot of stories, contradicting himself many times which did make me wonder. But when he talked one day about opening a compound and calling it John C Kim City, where everyone who lived there abided by his laws, well the alarm bells started to go off and helped me see what was going on. It was hard to leave, so I stopped practicing the form to help get it out of my system. Anyway, it is strange to read about it all now. I know some of you on this post and others I don't see, I would like to hear from. I remember Dave Anderson as being a very kind soul and sorry to hear he died. Forrest was going blind by the time I left (glaucoma or cataracts). I won’t bore you anymore. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

      Carey Grayson
      Reply to this
      1. 1/13/2009 7:25 PM Imaluver wrote:
        Hi Mr. Grayson,

        Please visit the discussion group called "Oom Yung Doe discuss" at Yahoo. There have been MANY people that came after you with similar experiences, and alot worse.

        Thanks for your post!
        Reply to this
      2. 1/13/2009 9:38 PM Tom wrote:
        That was a great post!! check out http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oomyungdoe_discuss/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1 THere are alot more people liek you out there.
        Reply to this
    • 5/18/2009 3:30 PM melissa wrote:
      i would like to know if there is anyone who remembers the minneapolis/brooklyn park/maplewood schools in the mid to late 90s - national instructor dave, instructor Doyle, Alan, James, Tom, and of course NICK. Anyone with any recollections of these people because I would very much like to ask questions - I trained with these people for years before moving to Illinois and starting to train in Muay Thai and JKD. I was so sucked in to so much at Chung Mo Doe, especially with Nat'l Inst David Gullifer. I felt very used as a female.
      Reply to this
    • 5/22/2009 6:58 PM Tom wrote:
      Doyal lives in Az now. He runs his own school. you can get in touch with him via his web page http://www.unitedmartialarts.com/
      Reply to this
    • 6/8/2009 8:29 PM Tim wrote:
      I was #14, I will never forget or regret the teachings of Kong Su and Chong Moo Quan. I first started at Four Lakes Village where the flying side kick roof top picture was taken. I knew Master Kim's family well and had many good times, Forest Troutner was our head instructor ans yes he was hard on the students, but I beleive we all gained a great deal of power, respect and knowledge from it.
      I am sorry for any bad direction the school may have gone and refuse to say anything bad. This is the first time in many years I have heard any news on the school. I miss some of my very close friends at that time and still think of them often.
      Reply to this
    • 9/4/2009 12:29 PM myscarsrundeepest wrote:
      It's mid-late 70's. I'm about 15-16yrs old. I'm going to join a martial arts place in Naperville, IL It's called Chung Moo Quan. Across the desk from me is a man named Ken in a cool uniform speaking to me in broken(pigeon)English. From my recollection he's a 1st or 2nd degree black belt. When I return later I'm introduced to Instructor John. He's the same belt as Ken but seems to run the school. They come across sort of like good cop, bad cop. John was always light hearted, joking, smiling. Ken for the most part was always serious. Later on a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt arrives. He's called Head Instructor Forest. Wow! he drives a cool 1974 silver 2-door Lincoln Continental. This man looked like money. I'm learning all these forms. I was part of something big. There some people I recognize there from my neighborhood. There's a woman who is about 3yrs to 5yrs older than me. She is a high belt. (not a blackbelt). I knew where she lives etc. She was definitely a "daddys' girl" drove a mustang with her Doberman Pincher. Later I was told she married Forest. There's another one there named Troy, he was a 2nd or 3rd section at the time. Now I hear he runs a school in Cal.. Everything is going fine. I'm hearing all the stories getting good at pulling the drapes aside for John and Ken. They would pull the drapes for Forest. My Pigeon-English is going good too. I noticed that John and Kim were now 3rd degrees and Forest was a fourth degree. Geez, I'm not even past 1st or 2nd section and these guys are already one more blackbelt up on me. One day I come to school and there's a cooler looking 1975 2-door Lincoln Continental sitting outside. I walk in and behind the desk today is..."Master". I remember everyone scrambling to please him. I beat them to the drapes though. They all looked shocked as I looked Kim in the eyes as he left. Later I'm told the drapes have to be pulled all the way up for him; not just taken aside. Shortly after I'm practicing Ship Pal Gae form. Instructor John comes up to me and throws his open hand towards my chest. I feel nothing on the outside. Inside it feels like I'm having a heart attack. I fall to my knees. He's smiling. He puts his thumb under my nose and moves my upper lip to the left and right. He says to me (laughing) this will even wake the dead. After he's done the pain is gone. Then he tells me they don't care about "dingys" outside of the school. (It turns out my sister is the same age as Instructor John; knows him from High School) One day Forest is showing forms in class. After class, in front of everyone in the school, I say to him "My sister says this place is a cult?". Forest looks at me and says: "Do you know what a cult is?" "No" I reply. Forest says: "It's an organization that holds you against your will...You can leave anytime you want to!". I left the school shortly after that.
      I returned a few months later. John no longer teaches there. Ken is in charge of the school. The verbal, physical abuse begins....
      Reply to this
      1. 11/13/2009 9:14 AM Jim wrote:
        I am presently training in one of the spinoff schools, and I am amazed the except for the tax evasion part of the stories detailed here, the "new" schools are very similar. Cult is a good word.

        What was John's last name?
        Reply to this
        1. 11/14/2009 1:00 AM Tom wrote:
          Get out of there. they are teaching you a fake martial art. And they charge too much to do it. Run while you can.
          Reply to this
          1. 11/15/2009 9:37 PM Jim wrote:
            I am on my way out. Struggling to find a good place to train though. I am once bitten, twice shy, at this point. Any suggestions on how to find a good instructor/school?
            Reply to this
            1. 11/16/2009 11:32 PM Tom wrote:
              Where are you located? I can help you.
              Reply to this
              1. 1/7/2010 2:43 AM Jim wrote:
                near boston
                Reply to this
    • 9/6/2009 9:50 AM myscarsrundeepest wrote:
      I’ve read the earlier post here. I found a couple interesting; especially, the ones from people who choose to continue with Chung Moo Quan,Doe or United Martial Arts, etc.. It reminds me of how I tried to convince someone to quit.
      You’d think I could have done it. I’m the one who talked him into joining in the first place. This was in the early 80’s. I was still a member at the Naperville Chung Moo Quan school. I showed him some wrist release moves etc..
      I finally convinced Greg G. to join. Troy W. was still practicing there. I had no monetary motive in getting Greg to join. Greg did not know Troy at the time. I didn’t stay much longer at the school. It seemed very apparent that Ken K. didn’t want me at that school; Greg stayed
      Ah… leaving CMQ. It reminded me of a Monty Python skit. The skit is the one where the hypnotist has built condominiums in one day. The condominiums are perfect until someone living in the complex starts to doubt that they’re real. As soon as that happens they show a picture of a condominium starting to crumble to the ground.
      Well, after I left the school my friends sent me out of state to get me better. When I came back, I met up with Greg. Apparently, the school was working well for him. He had moved into an apartment with Troy and another student. Their cat scratched me while I was at their apartment.
      Now Greg was trying to convince me to join back up. He was about a 4th or 5th section at this time. I was really impressed with his speed. It (CMQ training) seemed to work for him. What about the Pigeon English? He told me they were speaking ‘Masters’ words so they spoke the same way he did.
      Greg had an answer for most of my concerns. Except for what happened to me. His only reply was that they had never lied to him so he trusted them. He told me they’d changed; things weren't like what they were when I joined. He said Ken K. no longer ran the school. A new person was in charge there.
      He convinced me. I joined again. Remember about the Monty Python skit. I was starting to have that effect on the classes. There was one time the then current instructors there had me holding poise too long. I finally fell to the ground. The instructor just looked at me to see if I was OK. They used to humiliate a student. Maybe Greg was right.
      Days later, I’m at the school and to my surprise the now Head Instructor Ken comes to the school. He is not in a good mood. After class, he informs me, from behind the front desk, I will never amount to anything there. After that, I left for the last time. I stopped seeing Greg. Greg and Troy were being groomed to open up a school in Texas.
      In the end, everyone has to ask themselves: What is the “true” meaning of self-defense? Did Chung Moo Quan, Doe, etc.. help protect or prevent you from harm or did it end up the cause of harm? Would you have gone to prison if you hadn’t learned that “self-defense”.
      Reply to this
    • 1/7/2010 3:49 PM melissa latimore wrote:
      i trained in chung moo do, it changed to united martial arts about 3 yrs in, in brooklyn park, maplewood and then at the end before i moved to chicago, plymouth. i'm curious to hear about others people's experiences with the program. i trained in filipino martial arts in chicago for several years, now i'm back up in mn. i miss training so much, but i just can't afford it anymore.
      Reply to this
    • 1/7/2010 5:09 PM NC8HE wrote:
      Melissa,

      Weren't you looking for Mr. Doyle?
      Google- Yahoo Board and type - Oom yung doe discuss. You will see John C. Kims
      pic. Sign in. He is there.

      Matter of fact, most everyone who is here is there on that board.
      Reply to this
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